1961 XLCH

Classic short-frame models

1961 XLCH

Postby Zaemo » Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:01 pm

Well, in trying to be more selective, I may have found a bike that Bronc has up in Mass. He seems to have decent comments about him and his parts. The pics are terrible here. It looks like everything is corroded but he says it isn't. It's also not clean. He says it's very original. The frame is chrome but I would probably get another one from him. He went through the motor and trans for the previous owner. Is anyone near him or have you dealt with him?

http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/mcy/4833796588.html

Thanks as always,
Chad
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby strong56KH » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:14 pm

Upside down fork boots again? What's going on here?
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby hennesse » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:37 pm

Chad, Chad, Chad,

That money which is burning a hole in your pocket is going to lead you to making a serious mistake.

This guy advertises himself as a motorcycle shop, but the listing says "this 1961 "XLCH" has been sitting here a couple years but fired up about one year ago". That means it doesn't run, and he's not going to put forth the effort to make it run. What kind of motorcycle shop is that? What's wrong with it? Could be $5, could be $500, could be $5000. How much do you want to gamble?

Try out his website. Hmmm, it doesn't work.

On the Craigslist ad, click on the button "more ads from this user". Peek at the "REAL" 1978 "XLCR" CAFE' RACER. Note the garage full of rusty old junk.

The photos of the 1961 show rust just about everywhere. Photos often do lie - bikes often look much better in photos than they do in person. But when the photos show rust and more rust, it's pretty doubtful that it's going to look any better in person.

OK, we haven't even gotten to the bike yet... Let's look at just one of the photos:
00l0l_gYBWU51eCvf_600x450.jpg
00l0l_gYBWU51eCvf_600x450.jpg (46.01 KiB) Viewed 20859 times


The upper covers on the fork tubes are missing. The cover over the lower triple tree is from a later model. Makes me wonder what the rest of the front end is off of. The top triple tree has an unused tab sticking out the front. I'm pretty sure that's a top tree from a K/KH or 57-58 Sportster. The headlight is from a 1963 or later - you can tell by the style of the chrome ring. The pointy thing hanging down is the trip reset from the speedometer. He probably added the tach and speedo/tach mounting from a later model, and didn't know what to do with the trip reset. So down it hangs. The petcock on the tank is just a ball valve he probably got at Home Depot. The throttle cable is rubbing on the exhaust pipe. It's supposed to go through the handlebar and around the other side. He probably lost the handlebar throttle parts, and just stuck a chopper throttle control on it. Hmmm, wonder if the handlebars are original? There's some kind of gauge (oil?) and jury-rig pipe (probably also from the plumbing aisle at Home Depot). Did I mention rust?

No need to look at any other photos.

It's a bike that doesn't run, and is a mish-mash of parts from different bikes, plumbing parts, chopper parts. With a clear title, good serial number and matching belly numbers, I'd offer $750 as is. That's $750 - NOT $7500.

You really have to educate yourself on these bikes, and weed out the junk. Look at the photos of this bike. Look at the photos of Murph's 1962 in the Gallery section. Do you see the slightest resemblance? This one should never have received any serious consideration.
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby Zaemo » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:24 pm

I certainly didn't consider it was worth what he was asking. He's had a shop since 65 as the story goes. He's an old timer and moved everything to his home. I was more curious if anyone knew him or is reputation. You're saying it's not even worth a third party looking at it. Ok. Was it possible there was someone on this board that knows him or has seen this bike?
I'm not in the habit of sending a pile of cash to someone without some research. Obviously I can't soak up everything there is to know about 12 years of manufacture concerning these bikes especially having not owned one or put a wrench to one yet. Therefore, I offer it up here in a forum situation for discussion.

I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Kurt Von Zech. His bikes are beautiful and do not compare to the stuff I've been looking at. I can see that. The price tag also reflects that. $13k and on up can get me a restored well running bike but that's not where I'm at so I sift through the dregs. It's frustrating. I look at as many pictures as can find but learning the intricate details of these bikes is impossible with the common left side and front photos from 20 feet away.

I thought of finding an original bike to preserve still appeals to me but seems less and less likely.
Regards,
Chad
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby EKHKHK56 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:10 am

Black Cases again???? Must go with upside down boots option...plan on spending around $12-20K for bikes like these or Ks that are 100% ready to go, original or whatever unless you stumble on a deal. From what I have seen, most of the "good deal" bikes often need ALOT to make road ready and reliable. Goes back to you get what you pay for, plus be dilligent in researching what the bike actually is. Keep looking, something is bound to fit eventually! Erik
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby hennesse » Wed Jan 07, 2015 3:57 am

Chad,

K's and early Sportsters are some of the toughest bikes to buy and restore. People bought them because they were fast and light, and they were usually ridden hard and put away wet. They weren't ridden by little old ladies only to church on Sundays, so a lot of them got wrecked, or the engines blown up. That's when two factors came into play. First, the low production numbers meant that it was hard to find correct replacement parts. Second, a large number of parts from different years will physically fit on other years. Wreck your 1954 KH front end? No problem - just find a 1952 K front end, or a 1962 Sportster front end. Blow up your 1962 Sportster engine? No problem, just find a 1969 Sportster engine. Or a 1957 Sportster engine. Or heck, pop a 1956 KH engine in there. Lots of that went on back then, and as the years went by, a whole lot more did.

Consequently, 95% of the K's and early XL's you will find have serious bitsa problems (bits of this, bits of that). It's not unusual to find a bike that has parts from 5 or 6 other bikes on it. While you may be looking for a nice looking rider, and not something you're going to turn into a 100-point restoration, you definitely want the motor and chassis to be from one bike. In AMCA judging, a wrong engine/frame combination is an instant disqualification. In the real world, a wrong engine/frame combination means that it will probably remain a "bitsa", as finding the correct frame is a challenge. Frames are date-coded, and you have to find a frame that was made within a couple of months of the engine. The wrong frame may mean that some parts may not fit right, as not every part is interchangeable through the years.

"Not running" can be a serious problem. Read what Kurt Von Zech wrote on his website. Buying-----Simply-My-Opinion. Engine rebuilds cost big dollars - even assuming you can find someone reliable to do the work. Some engine/transmission parts are cheap and easy to find, but some are pretty tough to find, and expensive when you do find them - perhaps six months later.

The Gallery section of this website has exemplary examples of different years/models. There aren't a whole lot of them, simply because there aren't a whole lot of exemplary examples out there! And many good examples don't have good photos that you can really see details. DaveC just sent in some photos of a 1961 XLCH he restored, and I'll get them posted in the next few days.

Click on the photos in the Gallery to see larger versions. Most of them have a "Supersize" button at the left. Click that to get a huge photo. When you're in Supersize, hold down your mouse, and drag the photo around your screen to zero in on a particular area. Now you can compare that to the photos of the bikes you are looking at.

Perhaps the AMCA judging methods would help you with a structured method of looking at a motorcycle. Perhaps make yourself up an Excel spreadsheet so you can print it out for each bike you look at. Go down the list of 25 categories, and look at the things in that category and nothing else. Compare the bike for sale photos to the appropriate exemplary bike in the Gallery. Write down any differences you see. Not sure? Write something with a question mark.

For the 1961 you were considering, I figure you would probably need 2-4 hours to go through the categories and compare the photos of that bike with Murph's 1962. Heck, I spent about 30 minutes just looking at the one photo and writing down what I thought was wrong. If I spent another hour on it, I probably could have come up with a more comprehensive list. But I don't have the time...

You gotta do your homework first. I'm not going to spend an hour critiquing every bike you find on Craigslist - 95% of which are hopeless bitsa-s. If you do your homework first, you will eliminate a large percentage of them, leaving only the serious contenders for sharper eyes to critique. I speak only for myself, but perhaps others on this forum have more spare time than I do.

Here are the 25 categories:

Frame / Fork
Front Fender
Rear Fender
Wheels / Tires
Nuts / Bolts / Mounting Hardware
Handlebar / Grips / Controls / Comp Release
Engine / Transmission
Carburator / Intake Manifold / Air Cleaner
Exhaust System
Headlight / Magneto
Oil Tank / Oil Lines
Footboards / Footpegs
Chain Guard / Primary Cover
Seat and Seat Springs
Kick Starter and Pedal / Pedal Assembly
Front Brake / Clutch
Rear Brake
Rear Stand / Center Stand / Side Stand
Instrument Panel / Speedometer
Generator / Horn / Drive Apparatus
Battery Box / Tool Box / Sparkplugs
Gasoline Tank / Gas Lines
Wiring / Taillight
Plating / Bright Work
Overall Paint Finish / Includes Decals, Pin Striping

The AMCA requires that the bike start and run, although that is seldom enforced. But you, as a buyer, should be very concerned about this. And there's only one way to do it - by going to the bike, and starting and running it yourself. There are lots of beautifully restored motorcycles out there that do not even have pistons in the engine. How are you going to know, unless you start it up, and take it down the road running through the gears? You can't do this from 1000 miles away.

Chad, please don't take offense at what I've written. I want you to get a nice K or Sporty, but the antique motorcycle world is not quite the same as the old Ford world. And I want you to spend your money wisely...

Dave Hennessey
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby Zaemo » Wed Jan 07, 2015 9:30 pm

Thanks Dave. That actually clears a lot up and makes a lot of sense all spelled out like that.

Z
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby dr dick » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:29 pm

i doing a 68ch right now. im gonna sell it when its finished.
when i sell it im going to guarantee it to be in prefect mechanical shape.
its not an op bike and it had some chrome added.
but its been in storage since 75 and its mostly there. i have every thing to make it all there.
when im done its going to be true 68 with some cosmetic changes. chrome on the wheels and chassis polished alum on the engine.
heres some before pics
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
there will be VERY FEW non oe 68 parts on the bike when finished.
all the tin will be oem.
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby JerrryR » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:00 am

Hi Dr. Dick and Chad,
I've been following your adventure Chad as you search for the right bike, good luck. Here are some pictures of the 68CH that I picked up this fall and am going to try to bring back as stock as I have the patience and the knowhow to accomplish. It cost me $1,350 so I don't have a lot invested in it.
68 XLCH 1.jpg
68 XLCH 1.jpg (70.76 KiB) Viewed 20799 times
68 XLCH 2.jpg
68 XLCH 2.jpg (92.53 KiB) Viewed 20799 times
68 XLCH 4.jpg
68 XLCH 4.jpg (80.66 KiB) Viewed 20799 times
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Re: 1961 XLCH

Postby dr dick » Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:54 am

yeah jerry 68 and 69 are out there. good bang for your buck on those.

heres the build thread. this bike had been put on the back burner. but its time is coming back around.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/show ... ?t=1172767
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