K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Production K Models

Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby sportsterpaul » Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:56 pm

Ha, great stuff Patrick. I think Tom might be a bit of a lemonhead, mad at the world, or maybe he things everyone is giving him guff when we just don't understand what he is talking about.

OK, Tom, now I am impressed if you managed to work in a seal above the pump gears. I too would love to see a picture of how you did this. I can't see how it would not push the rotor up and cause problems in the pump and the pinion gear. See, if I did not parse that little fact then I can't appreciate what you are doing. I thought you were just advocating adding the seal to early K pumps that never came with one, not making a pump that has two seals. Is it the same seal in both? I have toyed with putting a thin O-ring in the housing, but O-rings don't like to rotate, so using the same lip seal would be ideal.

I agree, if you have a setup handy, it would be great to see a picture of it. I assume it has to lift the rotor up a tiny bit, but I also assume it is not enough to cause problems or you would have told us about it. I get the impression you want to keep it a big secret, so you can make money off the modification, but most folks on this forum would want to know exactly what is going on before paying for something that might not work.
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby hennesse » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:16 pm

sportsterpaul wrote:There must be a reason the factory manual talks about lapping the seat.


Paul has a good point - the factory recognized that a sticky check valve will cause drain-down, and that is the first thing an owner should try.

The 1952 through 1955 oil pumps had a relief valve in addition to the check valve. The relief valve got changed in 1955. It appears they eliminated the relief valve entirely in 1956. (Hard to tell exactly, they made so many changes).

Question - will a sticky relief valve cause the same drain-down problem that a sticky check valve will?
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby thefrenchowl » Mon Mar 28, 2016 3:49 pm

Bye bye Tom,

It was a short visit but nice all the same!!!! We will miss your endearing personnality and your teaching unsurpassed skills : 0 (

And, so sorry to have been OH so rude, I wish I have had an education and some of your manners, they do set you apart from all of us mud dwellers and oil leakers... : 0 )

Patrick Am I really Sorry? You bet!!!!!...
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby EKHKHK56 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:25 pm

I think it could. I like John's first post. A lot of good ideas. I'm also liking the seal job. Heard about that many times and is an improvement HD did. Has to help. Erik K
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby EKHKHK56 » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:26 pm

The part about watching gasket thicknesses is vital also for setting gear end play.
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby sportsterpaul » Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:16 pm

Yes, Erik, it never occurred to me that more end-play would allow more oil to go more places it was not intended. If you look at a 1977 pump you can see how they used a flat spring gizmo to remove the side-play from the gerotor set. But I think this is why Tom is so la-te-da about his fix. If you have the newer pump body with the seal between scavenge and feed, then the oil can not weep down into the scavenge section and then into the engine. If you have a good seated check-valve, then it cannot weep into the feed side and into the engine. And if you add that second seal above the gears, in the timed breather tower, well then the oil cannot weep up the rotor housing and into the engine. The endplay would make the pump less efficient, but even if the oil could weep past the gears, it can't go anywhere.

And Tom, I apologize. Where are my manners? I haven't made any introductions. Out in French Canada we have the TheFrenchOwl, Patrick. He runs a whole site on K-model race bikes. Its a non-commercial site, Patrick does it out of the good of his heart, because he loves old bikes and he loves racing and he loves his fellow man. I might know a little more about electronics than Patrick, but when it comes to motorcycles, I can't hold a candle to him. He goes to Bonneville and other races.

Down in Virgina is Dave H. He runs this site, also non-commercial, just because he loves bikes and his fellow man. I was impressed this last year to watch this site just blossom, and not just on this forum, but the main site as well. Dave has gotten permission from Harley to publish the old parts books for free, and that pretty much assures him a place in Heaven in my book. I learned that this site is not Dave's only endeavor, he also made a great site for Harley Hummers. Dave has passed on management of that site to others, for free, so he can concentrate on this site. Dave is a tech guy like me, and I can assure you that if he charged his rate for the time he spends on this site, it would be in the six figures.

Up in Alaska there is Erik. EKHKHK56 owns more K-model stuff and has built more bikes than most anyone. He is just a decent great guy and has helped Dave H get this site going. Always helpful, always polite, Erik is one reason I want to travel more, in the hopes I can meet him in person at an event like Davenport. I don't think you could have a better friend.

Then there is Dr Dick. I was delighted to see pictures of the good doctor in gallery section, but something is wrong with Dave's camera, since I could not see Dick's halo, his wings, or the throne he rightly occupies as a Sportster god. You can see a little of the good Doctor's handiwork over on the XLForum. I thought I knew a lot about Sportsters, but Dr Dick has schooled me on dozens of things, all for free and all with politeness and patience and respect. He is another guy I want to meet in real life. I do think he works on other people's bikes, like you. But I never see him trolling for work or doing anything commercial on the forum. The times I know he has done work for someone is when that guy got screwed by an unscrupulous mechanic, and the good Doctor swept in to fix things and restore the Karma of the universe.

Me, I too have a free Sportster website, and I too am old enough to know that I don't know it all. After meeting these guys I have learned I know very little. But they are a great bunch of people, and there is a reason nice-guy Erik pointed to the OP (original poster) on this thread. I don't know that guy (yet) but its obvious here is here to help and learn and enjoy and be part of something wonderful.

Now Tom, I hope Dave H has not pressed the "banish" button on you yet. As that book says, "All Huns have value, even as a bad example for the other Huns." At first I thought you were a passive-aggressive narcissist sociopath, wanting to lure us in so you can abuse us. But when you call us all idiots and then a few minutes later give out your phone number, I see those wild mood swings as being drug or alcohol induced and I sadly know all about that. So calm down, and we will have the respect for you that you can earn over the months and years it takes to earn people's respect. If you continue to lash out and insult people that I deeply admire, you won't get me to think you are better than them, just the opposite.

Tom, its great you have a fix for sumping, but until it works for a few years, it really doesn't work. What if that washer breaks or chips and you lunch a whole engine? And you don't have to be too secretive-- as Robert Oppenheimer said about the A-bomb, "The only secret is if it works." Trust me, Dr Dick could not only figure it out in his sleep, he would probably make significant improvements, which he would share, for free, with the rest of us.

Meanwhile, I am heading down to Home Depot to get a ball-check valve to put in my feed line. That why I can brag that I know TheFrenchOwl, and he teaches me things every chance he gets. I was going to try an add a second pipe with a 1977 pump check valve in parallel in case I forget to turn the valve, but first things first.
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby thefrenchowl » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:56 am

Here's a nice photo of DR DICK and others...

Image

DR DICK, aka Joe, is on the left next to the bike starter, I'm on the 54 KHK, my friend Richard's next, he's from GB where I actually lives, Paul!!!, and the last man is Graham and he came from Australia just to help us...

Model H, aka Mark, is Joe's brother, what a pair!!! He took the photo from our van as we wait for a run on course 4, started by the lovely Jill...

Don't know exactly which run that was, we did 8 in 2013 at the SCTA/BNI Bonneville Speed Week, but our fastest and penultimate was a 121.775mph average over mile 2. Entered the 2nd mile at 118mph and exited at over 124mph...

Image

Patrick
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby thefrenchowl » Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:53 am

Well, funny pic, not to be taken too seriously ; - )

... I really don't want to be around when you start insulting people FOR REAL!!!

And if you keep putting your feet in it, just step back a bit and reflect...

ie... Your idea of courtesy and civility is not quite the same as mine...

LOL Patrick
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby John R » Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:21 pm

I’ve been off the scene for a while as I lost Ingrid my wife last year, and been rather down, but now beginning to get things together again. And thank you to the K family for kindly comments and support sent via email and private message, it made a big difference. Thanks guys.

But talking of families, I didn’t mean to start a family row when I started this topic, but then families can have rows, and get over it. I read the whole thread and realised that everyone was right, but not necessarily about everything.

The thing is, we all learn from our own experience and observation, BUT we each have different experience. What I missed in my original post was the route for oil to leak past the shaft into the tower and fill the engine that way. The reason was that the two pumps I had seen till then had almost zero clearance between shaft and tower, and the enormous bearing area of the timed-breather suggested to me that it never would wear, the shaft rotating precisely in the centre of the barely clearance hole with no contact to generate wear.

Well, life can be different than theory, and the photos below are of another pump I have of the 52-54 type. Look at the damage done by the pins in the shaft to pump body and tower in the hands of someone not too careful. The pump is supposed to have the broached slot to clear the pins (the arrows at 2), but not the tower (the arrows at 1). If this pump were installed, when parked the tank would dump-down quick, and when running, lose oil pressure/flow that way too, especially if gaskets are thicker than the factory 3.8 thou ones (more about that later).

Patrick has the simplest answer: fit a check valve in the oil-line = no drain down. Don’t even have to think about leak points in the pump. Some though want their K to look stock, so then you have to check-out the pump.

Tom is right, you can fit an oil seal to the tower by precision opening-up to take a 26227-58 seal. Sure the thickness of the plate (.110”) is thinner than the seal (.131”), but so what? If done right it won’t fall out and it will seal that route. But if your tower has minimal shaft clearance, to my mind, don’t worry.

For Tom, that fixed his problems, but if he had ineffective ball valve seats (or other issues) the seal would only have been a partial fix.

The pump is marked-up in the photo below: S = stud holes, GC = return from gearcase, In = supply from tank, Ret = return to tank, By-Pass = over pressure flow to gearcase, Out = transfer to gallery, Gall = pressure gallery (which goes full width with by-pass valve on left and check valve on right).

Looking at this there are only four ways oil can leak down 1. past broached holes into scavenge section (which connects direct to the gearcase) 2. Past clearance into tower 3. past check valve 4. Past by-pass valve (blocked in ’55 and eliminated in ’56). There is a fifth, but improbable, wild card: a defective casting or bad drilling of the oilway in the right-side casing that leaks though to the gearcase before it even gets to the pump.

To my mind the order of proceedings is: 1. (essential) machine pump body and install a 26227-58 seal on the scavenge side 2. Check shaft to tower clearance and if necessary, machine and install a seal 3. check ball-valve seats and fix if necessary (have no experience of V-Twin’s cutter but a bit wary, cutters can be tricky, but there are good reports; I silver brazed a 3/8” ball to a rod and lap with finest grinding paste)

Check those and fix as necessary and there’s nowhere the oil can escape. But Patrick’s fix is easier!

One or two other pointers: If you install a seal as in 1. above, you will have to remove the pin nearest the end of the shaft to get the shaft past the seal, then reinstall the pin. Thin sticky tape wrapped-round the groove at the end of the shaft will ease it through. Gaskets. Some after-market ones are too thick, originals are 3.8 thou. The gears are the same thickness as the housings so the compressed gasket gives the running clearance (end float), perhaps down to 3 thou. Excessive clearance here drastically reduces the pump efficiency, and we all know that oil pressure can be low when hot – that does not necessarily equate to low flow as there is very little resistance in the system.

On my KK and KHK I have fitted metering plugs in the end of the pinion shaft and that helps the oil light go out at low speeds! Big-ends do not need massive amounts of oil – Big-Twins have side-feed via the pinion bush so the holes line-up briefly once per revolution.

That’s more than enough from me now…

John
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Re: K and early XL oil-tank drain down

Postby Lisa » Thu May 04, 2017 10:24 pm

3rd year with my 67 & 69 CH's with Tom's fix and all the oil stayed in the tank over the winter like the last 2 years - no more weep down at all no more hard starting with a lower end full of 60 weight oil to move around and no more cleaning up messes on the floor. YAHOO finally problem solved. 4 years now and NO problems at all.
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