K model legend

Production K Models

K model legend

Postby 55khkjoe » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:11 pm

I thought I would put this out there, over the last bunch of years at the eastern PA swap meets I would get to talkin with Nick Muth (a legend also) and a couple of the older guys in the AMCA Neshimy Chapter about a man who had a bike shop in Chester pa in the 50,s-60s. His name was Chico. They say he would rebuild these early K's and do something with the cams and he had made a double valve spring up for them. They say these bikes really ran if you didn't blow the tranny. Just some K lore from eastern PA
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Re: K model legend

Postby 55panman » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:19 pm

The double springs that they originally used on the KR. Sifton got from Tim Witham of S&W springs. Same spring they put on the JOMO Triumph 500 racers as an improvement over the stock springs. You can get this spring set from PM trouble is they are larger diameter so you need the KR type larger spring covers.
If you do some searching there is a beehive spring that works very well. A buddy copied my KR J cam lobes for his 45 and used the beehives and he says they really work slick says his 45 now goes like Stank! I will try to find out what that beehive spring is couldn't get it before.
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Re: K model legend

Postby thefrenchowl » Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:19 am

From my web site, the tech sheet that was with the double spring KR kit as sold in the fifties:

Image

Patrick
Flat Head Forever
https://web.archive.org/web/20071011184353/http://www.harleykrxlrtt.com/index.htm
I'm the one who has to die when it's time for me to die so let me live my life the way I want to...
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Re: K model legend

Postby Mutt » Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:06 am

so where did your buddy get the beehive springs? Who did he get to weld-up/ grinding of the the J grind 45 cams?
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Re: K model legend

Postby 55panman » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:55 am

I believe he got the valve springs from PAC springs. I have to get ahold of him to try to find out what they were from or a part number. I need it myself. He's a tool and die maker so he made from billet using my KR J's as a pattern. He wanted them for his 45 flat tracker so he make me a set for mine too in exchange for copying them. I think he saved a pattern. I saw Bruce of Enfield Racing at the Viking Chapter AMCA meet last week and he said he is making the J lobes now but I don't know if he makes them for the 45. 45's don't have the angle of the KR's. If interested when I get the spring spec. I'll ask my bud if he want to make more lobes--they are just the lobes you have to press off your shafts, cut your K lobes off, press on the new lobes and time them as your would on a new XR750 cam. Then the lobes are tack welded, I use INCONEL tig wire or use a nickel wire, I think you could even use 309 stainless. Oh, not sure on valve keepers but I planned to use Eastern MC Parts KR rebob valves on my 45. They are thin stem and early Sporty valve locks work on them.
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Re: K model legend

Postby Simon » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:55 pm

Hi 55panman - did you ever get more data on those beehive springs?
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Re: K model legend

Postby wz507 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:43 am

Simon wrote:Hi 55panman - did you ever get more data on those beehive springs?

Just curious, were you looking for small dia springs that would fit in K model valve covers (valve cover ID is ~ 1.06" so spring would have to be no more than ~1.02" large end OD?) or springs for the larger dia KR valve covers?
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Re: K model legend

Postby Mutt » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:13 am

I am also interested in a set of the beehive valve springs for a 55" WL motor I'm planning. If I can borrow a spring for a day, I have a awesome spring company I have used for the last 6 years, that I will have them make me 25 pair.
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Re: K model legend

Postby Simon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:22 pm

wz507 wrote:
Simon wrote:Hi 55panman - did you ever get more data on those beehive springs?

Just curious, were you looking for small dia springs that would fit in K model valve covers (valve cover ID is ~ 1.06" so spring would have to be no more than ~1.02" large end OD?) or springs for the larger dia KR valve covers?


Either would work - curious about what options I have for some upcoming builds.
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Re: K model legend

Postby wz507 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:52 am

For the large diameter KR valve cover I suspect there are quite a variety of springs one could find nowadays suitable to the task, both single and dual-spring combinations.

However, the small diameter valve cover used on the consumer K models really backs you into a corner because the offering of small diameter springs with adequate rate and height is quite limited. Perusing spring offerings recently from a variety of vendor literature revealed a few possible candidates for the small diameter valve cover. But of course suitability may be different for each individual based on what they feel is required to control their specific valve train and cam profile. Also, I doubt any of these candidates is a direct drop-in, i.e., requires shimming, alternative collars, keepers, custom valve, etc,

The few possible candidates I ran across are the following, although I’m sure if one pursued it further there are more. The commonality between all of them are the small block Ford V-8s, both 3-valve and 4-valve varieties.

Peterson Spring, PAC-1233, ovate wire beehive design, large end OD 1.025” rate ~ 300 lb/in, max lift 0.550”. This is from their Beehive series spring offering.

Peterson Spring, PAC 1234X, round wire, beehive design, large end OD 1.021” rate ~ 240 lb/in, max lift 0.500”. This is from their RPM series spring offering and involves more processing than the PAC-1233 and is alleged to be slightly better suited to high rpm operation.

Manley, 221418, ovate wire, conical design, large end OD 1.014”, rate = 236 lb/in, max lift 0.570”. This is from their NexTek series spring offering.

Since the vendors provide data tables of spring load vs height data for each of these candidates, thought it would be interesting to plot the data for comparison, as this makes it easy to see the range of seat and open pressures possible with each spring.

K Model valve springs.png
K Model valve springs.png (73.38 KiB) Viewed 15012 times
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