1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Production K Models

Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby starcain » Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:07 pm

Thanks for all your input Patrick, I appreciate it.
Stan
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby 55khkjoe » Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:14 pm

My KK was # 2325,it had the WR valve train 1 7/8 intakes, notched R valve keepers, lightning tappets, 1,2,3,4 number cams, I had it on the bench at same time as the 55 KHK, and compared various engine parts. the KK had -52 R heads, which when I measured the depth on the heads were identical to the KHK heads. I wish I would have taken some more measurements at the time. The cylinders were ported like the KHK.
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby starcain » Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:06 pm

Thanks for posting Joe. The information is of utmost interest to me. If in fact there was a cutoff point where they stopped the big valve version and went to the standard K valves the gap is starting to narrow. My friend with serial # 53KK-2415 has the small standard K valves in it. Your #2325 had the big valves. A person may conclude then that somewhere in between is when the change occurred. Only 90 numbers apart. Do you think that this motor was a special factory setup or do you think that all early KK's were set up like this with 1 7/8" intakes, R heads and ported cylinders. Do you think someone may have modified it along the way sometime or straight like that from the factory? Are the 18070-41R WR valves 1 7/8" as yours was or 1 3/4" as Patrick mentioned and as the valve I have pictured ( 1.752" ) I wish someone could positively identify that valve for me. Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get to the actual facts. You don't happen to have any factory documentation on the KK do you? Thanks again for the information Joe.
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby ambike » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:51 am

Star & others :

I've owned a WR since the early 80's.

The valves' diameters are : Int 1.750 / Exh 1.625

The intake valves are identical to your NOS 18070-41R. The exhaust has similar construction details. The parts are genuine H-D and could be the original items to the motor.

If the early KK used the -41R intake, and I believe the parts book is correct, then the original stock set-up is 1.750 ". The OEM WR -41R intake valve was not 1.875 ".

Now, what's the diff between 18070-41R and 18070-52 ? Is a NOS -52 valve * really * 1.703 " ?

For right now I don't have a -52 valve in hand to view or measure. I've been thinking the -52 was the same diameter as -41R but not machined on its top. Feb 1956 parts book shows $ 1.30 difference in price. There you go.

If a stock K intake valve is aprox .050 " smaller, I'd think the KK cylinders should have a unique part number. Then again, the valve seat difference is only .025 " per side.

So, KK ports had no extra handi-work ??

About Enfield's valves : It's perfectly logical to supply intakes with the larger OD. Any reduction needed is easy to achieve.
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby starcain » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:59 am

ambike, Can't thank you enough for offering up that information. Finally a definitive conformation that the valve I have is the correct valve for that box. With your info and Patrick's info I feel pretty darn confident now that the early KK's had in fact the 1.75" intakes and 1.625" exhausts. I'm not sure then what Joe Streett's setup was? A standard K intake does in fact have a 1.703" valve head diameter and the exhaust is 1.578" Picture is of all NOS valves. Thanks again, you made my day.
Stan
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby wz507 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:37 pm

In light of the discussion going on here was curious and took a peak at some K model valves that came with my 56 KHK basket case. One of the cylinders had a seat installed and therefore smaller valve with it, and the other cylinder looks to be stock with a larger valve as no seat has been installed. Both exhaust valves were the size specified above and the intakes were a mixed bag, i.e., one large (1.812”) in the stock port and one small (1.703”) where the seat was installed. The large one is a slightly different variant of the 18070-54 part number, calling out "Made in USA" vs the one shown in Stan’s image. I'm sure you appreciate that Stan and I coordinated the genuine fake wood motif background in both images?

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vs Small Valves

Postby EKHKHK56 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:20 pm

Stan, I have a couple 53 KK projects. One has the WR stye cams with the flat Boot followers. I'll look them over when I get to them. Moving parts from my containers to shop. Running modified 56 Chevy 235 Intake valves has been around a long time. I trim the stem and machine an H-D keeper groove instead of shimming valve springs etc. and using Chevrolet keepers. You can cut the head down, I just run them full size. 2 mm bigger than KHK. With the stroker motor it doesn't even seem to notice the difference as far as tunability. Even with 420 E cams that open at 72° BTDC I have smooth clean idle yes with my correctly tuned Linkert. And it pulls like a freighter. Patrick, the 2 stroke comparison is probably right for a 45. With the 56 inch motor it's more like a 3 stroke :D
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby starcain » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:31 pm

[quote="wz507"]In light of the discussion going on here was curious and took a peak at some K model valves that came with my 56 KHK basket case. One of the cylinders had a seat installed and therefore smaller valve with it, and the other cylinder looks to be stock with a larger valve as no seat has been installed. Both exhaust valves were the size specified above and the intakes were a mixed bag, i.e., one large (1.812”) in the stock port and one small (1.703”) where the seat was installed. The large one is a slightly different variant of the 18070-54 part number, calling out "Made in USA" vs the one shown in Stan’s image. I'm sure you appreciate that Stan and I coordinated the genuine fake wood motif background in both images?


wz507, I've seen several variations of the K and KH valves through the years. I think the 18070-54 valve I have pictured may be the latest ones made? So your saying that one of your KHK cylinders was set up for a K intake valve and the other one for a KH intake valve? I wonder why someone would have done that? Interesting, It may have been a trick they used back in the day. I wonder what kind of running results you would have gotten from that? Which cylinder was the K valve in? BTW, nice background for your pic. I like yours better LOL
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby starcain » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:38 pm

Erik, Are your KK's early (big valve) or later (small valve) ones. You happen to have serial numbers on them that you could share? I'm still trying to narrow down when the change took place from WR valves to standard K?
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Re: 1953 KK Big Valves vs Small Valves

Postby wz507 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:13 pm

starcain wrote:wz507, I've seen several variations of the K and KH valves through the years. I think the 18070-54 valve I have pictured may be the latest ones made? So your saying that one of your KHK cylinders was set up for a K intake valve and the other one for a KH intake valve? I wonder why someone would have done that? Interesting, It may have been a trick they used back in the day. I wonder what kind of running results you would have gotten from that? Which cylinder was the K valve in? BTW, nice background for your pic. I like yours better LOL
Stan

Yes each cylinder was different, one big valve and one little. The big valve is worn to the point of having no margin remaining and is sharp enough to shave with, so suspect it's partner was even worse off and no longer useable. Regarding why someone would do it, this is pure conjecture but....... they probably sunk the original valve so far it could no longer be used on the existing seat, didn't have any OS valve options, so opted for a new seat, and they just happened to have a new seat that matched the K valve in inventory, so problem solved with the seat installation. "Oh don't worry about how it runs, it will be perfect, these are strong engines and what difference would a minor detail like 0.100" in valve diameter make?"

Whoever performed the work did an atrocious job, leaving the lower edge of the seat hanging down in the port with no attempt whatsoever to blend it in anywhere - just a big blob hanging in the port. "Heh, but since 0.100" difference in valve dia doesn't make a difference in how it runs, why worry about a 1/4" protrusion sticking into the port. These ports are factory polished and have plenty of flow potential so it'll still get more air than it needs!"

I think the blacksmith that performed the engine work (apologies to blacksmiths, as they would likely be far more qualified than whoever did this work) actually did me a favor, as I'd rather have the port unmolested as it is with the seat hanging out, than have some other artist's interpretation of what the repaired port should look like permanently carved in it.

This seat installation was performed on the front cylinder. The rear cylinder had a hairline crack between the IN valve and bore. I Dremeled it out and brazed it in, so both cylinders will now receive new seats.
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