KH issues with the starter crank..

Production K Models

KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby IIKickstarterII » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:54 pm

Hi everyone!
I'm new to the forum and I'm also a happy new owner of a KH-55 mod. I have experience with the W series, but I'm a noob with the K's:) I brought the bike home last weekend and as all new owners I wanted to fire up the bike. This turned out to be a interesting experience. The starter crank stands when seen from the side of the bike about 10 o'clock. Normally 12 o'clock? I feel like I lost about 30 percent of the kick. I'm not a big guy so I feel I need all 110 percent :lol: . Anyone know something about the problem and how to solve it? Pic attached.
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby hennesse » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 am

IIKickstarterII wrote:Hi everyone!
The starter crank stands when seen from the side of the bike about 10 o'clock. Normally 12 o'clock? I feel like I lost about 30 percent of the kick.


The big spring should return the crank to about 11:30 - roughly pointing at the top of the shock absorber. As you rotate the crank, it should engage around 10:30

Unfortunately, all the action takes place on the other side - inside the primary case, and you have to remove the clutch hub to get to the starter parts. Not an easy job.

I'm at a loss here. The crank gear has a square hole, so it can only be correct or 90 degrees out - not 45 degrees out like yours. There's a stop pin which fits into a slot in the crank gear - this keeps it from going too far in either direction. But since the crank gear can be either correct or 90 degrees... There's a little thrust plate that has to lined up on assembly, if this slipped off during assembly - could it possibly prevent the gear from returning fully?

Take a look at the 1956 Parts Book (over in the Literature section). The starter is a pretty straightforward system, so this 45-degrees out behavior is baffling me. Maybe someone else has an explanation...
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby mikeslemmon » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:36 pm

.if the return spring is shot or doesnot have the full preload (1/2 .turn) the arm may.not be fully returning. .
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby ambike » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:41 pm

All true, but if all parts are in tolerance and everything is buttoned-up right, the kicker's engagement would occur as designed regardless of the return spring.

The kicker shaft could be twisted, or the fit between the shaft & kicker gear is no longer " tight ". The clutch drum could be positioned too far to the left. ( spacing is incorrect for some reason, or the hub nut has loosened ).

Things need to come apart for a look~see.
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby IIKickstarterII » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:24 pm

Hi thx for response:)
To start with what Hennesse pointed out was the action of crankarm going to 1130. It stops mecanically at the position at picture and so I dont believe its the spring as mikeslemmon mentions... The whole movement of the crankstarter seems to me at least, tight and in good shape. The movement stops in both ends.
I see in the partscatalog that there is a difference between KH and XL's. For example for the crankshaft 33094-52A for the KH and 33094-57 for the XL's. I know that the engine was rebuild in the late 90's and almost not used since. Could there be a mix up of parts?
I've also heard that the crankshafts tend to twist, but more than 20 degrees? :shock:
This whole matter is kind of difficult to diagnose before its opened up I guess. Worth checking up the thrust plate.
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby ambike » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:11 pm

I've never compared the kicker parts, but a mix & match could certainly be the problem.

It's possible the transmission failed and the trap door was changed-out.

Maybe somebody has photos of the two different kicker gears and shafts ??
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33348-xx gear and 33359-xx cam plate

Postby hennesse » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:26 pm

Many of the parts changed with the 1957 Sportster, as can be seen in the 1957 Parts Catalog. So there's K-parts and XL-parts.
kicker-57-partsbook.JPG
1957 Parts Book
kicker-57-partsbook.JPG (46.9 KiB) Viewed 14626 times


Here's the gear and cam plate from my 1954 KH. Note 5 rivets and flat gear face. Pretty sure this is the -52A used from 1954 to 1956
Look at the illustration in the 1954 or 1956 Parts Catalog
kicker-dave.jpg
From my 1954 KH
kicker-dave.jpg (43.11 KiB) Viewed 14626 times


OK, lookey here is advertised as a -57. Note 5 rivets and raised surface on inner side of square hole.
The raised inner surface looks like photos of reproduction -57's for sale many places.
kicker-57.JPG
Kicker 1957-later
kicker-57.JPG (35 KiB) Viewed 14626 times


Now lookey here Note 4 rivets, and flat surfaces. Although advertised as a -57, I think this is really the -52 that was used in 1952 and 1953. Look at the illustration in the 53 Parts Catalog - 4 rivets.
kicker-52-maybe.jpg
Kciker -52 maybe?
kicker-52-maybe.jpg (48.32 KiB) Viewed 14626 times


From a rough eyeball, the corners of the square holes all appear to point in the same place. The slots look the same. The cam plates look similar. So from the point of view of IIKickstarterII 45 degrees off, this ain't the difference. The -57 crankshaft has to be a little different for the change in the -57 gear, but I don't think that's our 45-degree difference either. Suspect all the -57 parts have been beefed-up though.
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby IIKickstarterII » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:44 am

Thanks for nice pics to compare with! :)
I see that there is a difference in the amount of teeth. 19 on the older ones and 20 on the newer.
I think my solution for this issue will be to first open the engine and then check which parts the starter system consists of. A friend refered to me from an older book for internal training from Harley, that they recommend to stick to the parts from 52-57 or 57 and up. Recommended not to mix..
Starter clutch 33380-52A and gear 33431-52 was as described in the book that parts you only mount on your enemies bike :lol: Due to the teeth are finer and makes the kickback worse...
So the goal must be to end up with 57 and up parts on the starter system.
So control or change following parts if needed.
33094-57 Starter crankshaft if twisted
33348-57 Gear starter crank
33423-57 Gear starter clutch
33379-57 Starter clutch

I guess special tools are needed for demounting the clutch and maybe more? Any suggestions on which and where to get them?

If somebody have an opinion or experience of this plz comment :)
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby mrmom9r » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:50 am

There is an early and a late XL kicker shaft. I don't remember the year off the top of my head but in the mid 70's there becomes a second version that is indexed differently from the early one.

If you have the later one with the early kicker parts it comes out exactly like your picture.
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Re: KH issues with the starter crank..

Postby ambike » Sun Jun 11, 2017 9:09 am

First off : You've got your work cut out.

Your friend is correct about the ratchet, but there's even a later version to update / improve the -57 part. The problem is not so much from kick-back. The problem with the earlier ratchets & related gear is the damned things have small " teef ". That results in contact being lost. A guy will KICK thru and if the ratchet lets go, the knee can be hyper-extended. STROKING the kicker with constant pressure keeps the pressure on.

It's reasonable to think your motor has had some creative engineering. And that means parts have been mismatched.

( I'm wondering if the case has been damaged at the kicker starter's stop pin ? )

Dave made a good analyzation of the kicker gears. However, count the teeth between the ramps. See the difference ? How that relates to what you have I don't know. I have these parts ( K vs. XL ) but nothing in hand right now to compare & measure.

Starter Gear 33348-52.jpg
Starter Gear 33348-52.jpg (325.39 KiB) Viewed 14644 times


Starter Gear  33348-57.jpg
Starter Gear 33348-57.jpg (205.64 KiB) Viewed 14644 times
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