KHK Top O/H

Production K Models

Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby wz507 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:48 pm

Interested to know slightly more about the heads. Could you please post a top view of the head and a side view of the intake side of the head, i.e., the side above the carb/IN manifold. Thanks.
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Geodoc » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:28 pm

wz507 wrote:Interested to know slightly more about the heads. Could you please post a top view of the head and a side view of the intake side of the head, i.e., the side above the carb/IN manifold. Thanks.


Here you go. Two different style heads apparently.

The "circle E" head

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The -1 head:

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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby GuS » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:13 am

I dont think you will find any larger OD pistons. They used to have them in +08, but not any more.
Excellent if you can get som KH cylinders. If not you can go to Venolia. They make you pistons,110 each. Plus rings They supply ring from Total seal. Qualiy is the best. They make you any size there is rings to. Meaning almost any size. But make sure you know what dim your cyls will clean up at.
Picture of pistons they made for me. These are for a W stroker. I have also had them make me a set for KH approx +08.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=681

To the "double" top ring. Total seal have a gapless ring. I have very good experience using that on W.

http://www.aperaceparts.com/resources/t ... /rings.jpg


Good luck

GuS
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby EKHKHK56 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:50 pm

Nice work Gus! Great info and sources. Thank you. George, the heads are 52-53 #s stamped in, 54-56 raised #s. Heads MUST match valve head size and cam lift. 54-56 heads have different chambers, with part of dividing shelf machined for bigger intake valve. And Higher lift. Ks must have about.
.090" clearance above OPEN Exhaust valve and .120" above OPEN intake for clearance but primarily for flow.
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Geodoc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:25 pm

EKHKHK56 wrote:Nice work Gus! Great info and sources. Thank you. George, the heads are 52-53 #s stamped in, 54-56 raised #s. Heads MUST match valve head size and cam lift. 54-56 heads have different chambers, with part of dividing shelf machined for bigger intake valve. And Higher lift. Ks must have about.
.090" clearance above OPEN Exhaust valve and .120" above OPEN intake for clearance but primarily for flow.


Heh Erik,

I put a dial indicator on each one of the lifters to see if the lift corresponded to the .375" that you mentioned as the spec for the KHK cams. The lift I measured was between .345" - .360", so I assume what's there are worn KHK cams (K or KK was .325" lift?) . I haven't been inside the cam cover so no info on cam markings, etc. It's garage mate Tom's opinion (and it's his call since he's the one contracted to do the work) that this amount of cam wear is probably acceptable.

As for the different heads - if there turns out to be acceptable valve to head clearance then what is the problem with running the two different ones? I can see if there was appreciably different combustion chamber volumes that gave a far sized diference in compression ratios, that would at least result in more running vibration, poor fuel consumption and other things you'd rather not have. What other down sides are there?

I should mention again that this is a customer bike and we are only doing doing what the customer is authorizing and willing to pay for. If we can make a case for additional work to be done, then he is probably OK with it, but he doesn't have an unlimited budget after paying for his Knucklehead project. As it stands what he wants is for it to start & run well even if there are some detail items that might be assigned to an "optional for later" category.
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Geodoc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:34 pm

GuS wrote:I dont think you will find any larger OD pistons. They used to have them in +08, but not any more.
Excellent if you can get som KH cylinders. If not you can go to Venolia. They make you pistons,110 each. Plus rings They supply ring from Total seal. Qualiy is the best. They make you any size there is rings to. Meaning almost any size. But make sure you know what dim your cyls will clean up at.
Picture of pistons they made for me. These are for a W stroker. I have also had them make me a set for KH approx +08.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=681

To the "double" top ring. Total seal have a gapless ring. I have very good experience using that on W.

http://www.aperaceparts.com/resources/t ... /rings.jpg


Good luck

GuS


Been lucky enough to be able to get a pair of used KHK barrels from Erik with enough material left for an overbore without having to go beyond the normal O.S. available. It looks like V-Twin Manufacturing has K-Model pistons that I take are the same as used in the KHK. In the parts book that's linked on this site, there is not a separate part number listed for the pistons, only for a piston / barrel set, so not sure on this.

http://www.vtwinmfg.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... 057_144062
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby wz507 » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:35 pm

Geodoc wrote:I put a dial indicator on each one of the lifters to see if the lift corresponded to the .375" that you mentioned as the spec for the KHK cams. The lift I measured was between .345" - .360", so I assume what's there are worn KHK cams (K or KK was .325" lift?) . I haven't been inside the cam cover so no info on cam markings, etc. It's garage mate Tom's opinion (and it's his call since he's the one contracted to do the work) that this amount of cam wear is probably acceptable.

You’d have to be concerned about where 0.030” of cam lobe disappeared to and the ensuing debris and consequences thereof? Does the bore show evidence of debris present?

Geodoc wrote:As for the different heads - if there turns out to be acceptable valve to head clearance then what is the problem with running the two different ones? I can see if there was appreciably different combustion chamber volumes that gave a far sized diference in compression ratios, that would at least result in more running vibration, poor fuel consumption and other things you'd rather not have. What other down sides are there?

Regarding the different heads, I see mismatched head styles used all the time, so if it were mine I wouldn’t think twice about mixing and matching. As Erik cautioned, the only issue to be aware of with the KHK cams is clearance of the IN valve at full lift to the ledge between IN and EX valves. The image below illustrates this issue where you can easily visualize the little crease that is present where the clay ends between IN and EX valves where an IN valve has kissed the head. If you open this area slightly with a burr to provide a little clearance you should have no issues. With a 1.800” dia IN valve and 1.572” dia EX valve, this bone stock as-cast chamber with no head gasket allowed IN & EX valve lifts of 0.430” and 0.440” respectively, so plenty of clearance for a 0.375” lift KHK cam.

lr early clay head.jpg
lr early clay head.jpg (187.49 KiB) Viewed 13090 times
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Geodoc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:01 pm

Looking at the heads for signs of valve kissing I don't see any, but will certainly re-check during assembly. With new barrels & valves probably a good idea.

There's no sign of any debris damage in the bores, just about .001" - .0015" difference between the bore dia. at the cylinder bottom where the cross hatch is intact and where the rings have been wearing it. The smoking & oil consumption was mostly because of seriously worn out rings and the situation not helped by a warped rear head causing a lot of compression loss.

wz507 wrote:
Geodoc wrote:I put a dial indicator on each one of the lifters to see if the lift corresponded to the .375" that you mentioned as the spec for the KHK cams. The lift I measured was between .345" - .360", so I assume what's there are worn KHK cams (K or KK was .325" lift?) . I haven't been inside the cam cover so no info on cam markings, etc. It's garage mate Tom's opinion (and it's his call since he's the one contracted to do the work) that this amount of cam wear is probably acceptable.

You’d have to be concerned about where 0.030” of cam lobe disappeared to and the ensuing debris and consequences thereof? Does the bore show evidence of debris present?

Geodoc wrote:As for the different heads - if there turns out to be acceptable valve to head clearance then what is the problem with running the two different ones? I can see if there was appreciably different combustion chamber volumes that gave a far sized diference in compression ratios, that would at least result in more running vibration, poor fuel consumption and other things you'd rather not have. What other down sides are there?

Regarding the different heads, I see mismatched head styles used all the time, so if it were mine I wouldn’t think twice about mixing and matching. As Erik cautioned, the only issue to be aware of with the KHK cams is clearance of the IN valve at full lift to the ledge between IN and EX valves. The image below illustrates this issue where you can easily visualize the little crease that is present where the clay ends between IN and EX valves where an IN valve has kissed the head. If you open this area slightly with a burr to provide a little clearance you should have no issues. With a 1.800” dia IN valve and 1.572” dia EX valve, this bone stock as-cast chamber with no head gasket allowed IN & EX valve lifts of 0.430” and 0.440” respectively, so plenty of clearance for a 0.375” lift KHK cam.

lr early clay head.jpg
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Simon » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:21 pm

Geodoc, if the owner has no use for those stroker plates after fitting the -54 cylinders, I would be interested in them. I am possibly looking to fit a set of KR cylinders to a KH. Please keep me posted!
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Re: KHK Top O/H

Postby Geodoc » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:05 pm

Heh Simon,

I'll pass that on to TJ, the bike's & the stoker plates owner. PM me your contact info to give to him.

As an aside. Dan, the guy that built the bike was over to the shop a couple days ago to have a look at the rings & try to figure out why they wore so fast causing lost compression and terrible oil consumption. He brought along a small hardness tester that he used to check the rings and sure enough, very much softer that should be. So there it is, 2500 mi. and totally worn out, especially the (1-piece) oil ring. Yet another case of "bad out of the box".

Also got some of the story behind the bike. Apparently it was one of two basket cases that came into the possession of a local guy. He proposed to Dan that he would give him the sort-of complete KHK in exchange for building up the K Model that was one of the two. So that explains the 'mix & match' of components and the K cylinders, odd heads, rear fender, etc.

Anyway, kudos to Erik for parting with his cylinders. As soon as they arrive, will make a list of what's lacking and source all that. Looking forward to hearing it come back to life.

George

Simon wrote:Geodoc, if the owner has no use for those stroker plates after fitting the -54 cylinders, I would be interested in them. I am possibly looking to fit a set of KR cylinders to a KH. Please keep me posted!
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