KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Production K Models

KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby Anthony » Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:01 pm

Hello everyone. As someone who is new to K models, and to hopefully help others who are in the same situation in the future, I'd like to share a couple of pictures of KHK, KK, and KH cams all lined up together. I've read that KHK and KK cams are quite similar, but from what you will see here, that doesn't seem to be the case - they're quite different. From top to bottom: KHK, KK, KH. Apologies for the small images, but they are all the site will allow.
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IMG_3442.jpg
IMG_3442.jpg (34.38 KiB) Viewed 11666 times
IMG_3444.jpg
IMG_3444.jpg (35.8 KiB) Viewed 11666 times
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby starcain » Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:45 am

Anthony, Welcome to the group. Nice comparison pictures but pretty small. I thought the website allows up to 500 KB for an image size? Yours are around 35KB

The middle row that you say are KK cams are not KK. KK cams and KHK cams are in fact identical with the exception of KHK cams were stamped KHK and the KK cams stamped 1,2,3,4. I'm not sure when they started stamping the KHK in them, when the KHK came out in 1954 or in 1956 when the KHK was offered as a separate model for that year. The lobes on your middle row look more like K cams but most if not all K cams were stamped with a "K". The lobes almost look a little pointier than K cams. Maybe 45 cams? Besides the unique cam design on the KK,KHK cams all of them have narrow cam gears. KK and KHK cams have a gear width of 0.442" with the exception of the tall gear on # 4 cam that measures 0.380". The measurements in the picture of the cam gear comparison represents gear width.

Stan
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K KH KK KRM KHK KR Cams (2).jpg
K KH KK KRM KHK KR Cams (2).jpg (167.49 KiB) Viewed 11631 times
Cam Gear Comparison.jpg
Cam Gear Comparison.jpg (269.25 KiB) Viewed 11631 times
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby panic » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:17 am

All K, etc. cams have tapered lobes.
The only 45 cams with tapered lobes are WR with the "ice skate" flat tappet, everything else 1929-73 is concentric & parallel.
[url="http://victorylibrary.com/L-BK.htm"]The Linkert Book[/url]
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby Anthony » Tue Oct 25, 2022 5:39 pm

Starcain, thank you for the much better quality pictures - it looks like I need to do some non-phone editing to get my images to just the right size in the future. Apple's "small" is quite small, and their "medium" is too large. What's unfortunate here is that the middle cams - those that I thought were KK, are actually marked KK. Either someone marked one of them as such, or they were reground (strange). I will take a picture of them next to regular K cams for comparison next time I'm at the shop, and I'll also compare the cams gears. So much learning to be done here.
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby wz507 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:02 pm

We’ve already learned that KK and KHK lobes are one and the same. For the sake of completeness, we should also acknowledge that this same lobe was also used in the KHRM and the 53 KR (-53R part number), so a single lobe was put to work in 4 different motorcycles.
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby starcain » Tue Oct 25, 2022 6:25 pm

Anthony, the cams marked KK would truly be a mystery. Are all of them marked KK or just one? As wz507 points out, those same cams were used on the '53 KRM, the KHRM's and the '53 KR. Seems weird they would have marked them KK when they were used in multiple models. Looking forward to seeing your next pictures.
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby Simon » Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:41 pm

A pic of the other side of the #2 cam in question would quickly identify whether it is a 45 cam.

Also, some conjecture regarding the KHRMs (not sure about KRMs) - there is a shop dope sheet specifically describing how to time them with the KK/KHK grind, which leads me to believe that those cams were a desirable option, rather than standard (which were perhaps KH). Unless there was sufficient confusion amongst the (few) owners on how to time them...
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby wz507 » Tue Oct 25, 2022 11:02 pm

Simon wrote:A pic of the other side of the #2 cam in question would quickly identify whether it is a 45 cam.

Also, some conjecture regarding the KHRMs (not sure about KRMs) - there is a shop dope sheet specifically describing how to time them with the KK/KHK grind, which leads me to believe that those cams were a desirable option, rather than standard (which were perhaps KH). Unless there was sufficient confusion amongst the (few) owners on how to time them...

Any chance you could post that Shop Dope as I'd like to see it?
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby starcain » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:13 am

Just as a point of interest, this tappet kit is what turns a K motor into a KK. The cam gears are designated with the "R" suffix. Interestingly, the parts books don't show the cam gears as an "R" part number. It's just the opposite for the valves. The parts books show the valves as a 41R part number while the tappet kit has no "R" suffix designation for the valves but rather a RO prefix. So, what does "RO" mean? Is it just another way of designating "Racing"
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Tappet Kit (2).jpg
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Re: KHK, KK, and KH cams visual comparison

Postby panic » Wed Oct 26, 2022 3:00 pm

How to time them?
On the marks, like every 4 cam engine since 1929. Each tooth is wayyy too far a jump to make a useful alternate position: 25.7 degrees.
The only way I know of (Branch's method, described in Cycle World June 1965) is to grind the lobe off the gear, rotate them to a better position by crank degrees, and weld them back together.
Bruce Argetsinger can tell you more, he sells cam lobes https://tinyurl.com/4rwts9cb.
[url="http://victorylibrary.com/L-BK.htm"]The Linkert Book[/url]
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