1959 XLR TOP TREE

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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby dr dick » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:35 pm

thefrenchowl wrote:Back to the top tree that started this topic... I can't comment, having no idea what is fitted on the real bike, race or street items...

Guys wanting advise on such rarefied stuff should put photos on... ; -

Patrick

yes!

paul all r frames had a foot peg bracket attached to the right cradle tube about 2" in front of the tomahawk.
and yes someone could have added a kick stand tab to an r frame.ive did it many times.
all ohv r frames ive seen had the stamped top mount.

patrick:
there is a -58r and a -58ra alum top tree.
what it looks like i dont know.
remember the -58r to -58a (61-e62) rear motor mount discussion?
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby JerrryR » Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:06 am

Hi Patrick, Did the racers use a seat casting different then the production bikes? I am aware of 3 production bike castings between 52 and later 64 when they changed the casting in preparation for the mounting of the voltage regulator in 65.
The first for the 52Ks with the welded on steel strut supports. In addition to the strut supports being welded on the casting is thinner than the later 52 through 55 casting.
Threaded K Seat Casting Picture 1.jpg
Threaded K Seat Casting Picture 1.jpg (83.41 KiB) Viewed 26919 times

The next that was a little thicker is the later 52 through 55.
Engine Teardown 57XL Group 1 057.JPG
Engine Teardown 57XL Group 1 057.JPG (262.72 KiB) Viewed 26919 times

Finally the casting that was a little thicker that came out in 56 and I believe was used until the above mentioned change in 65.
Engine Teardown 57XL Group 1 065.JPG
Engine Teardown 57XL Group 1 065.JPG (240.49 KiB) Viewed 26919 times

Have a great night,
Jerry
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby thefrenchowl » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 am

All the K frames I've had, 3, plus the -58R frame on my XLRTT have had fully cast seat casting...

I was aware of these horrible machined/welded extensions from OEM Pohlman photos I have, but always assumed they must have been repairs to broken fully cast seat castings.

I was even more convinced of this since 2 of my K frames, despite being all cast there had some neat factory reinforcing welding done at the back and top junction between web and casting proper. So I assumed rightly it was a weak casting that was reinforded with thicker webs on KH and Sportsters.

Unless we see more and more of these welded extensions frames, I will not move my position that these are repairs to already sold bikes, probably with rushed OEM factory supplied bits.

Most KR only frames would have these ears cut off anyway, either by owners or at the factory. Guys swapping their bits between racing KRs and KRTTs would have kept them...

I'll check my Pohlman shots again, I have the feeling that the 1st ever KRTT prototype has the welded extensions...

Patrick
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby thefrenchowl » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:50 am

JOE: patrick:there is a -58r and a -58ra alum top tree.
what it looks like i dont know. remember the -58r to -58a (61-e62) rear motor mount discussion?


Hi Joe, my memory is terrible, remind me????

I've seen a few alloy top trees for the R frames 33mm forks, they are quite rounded and without bosses for side screws, from far they look a bit like the Ceriani trees!!! Bottom tree was always cast steel.

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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby sportsterpaul » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:58 pm

OK, having both OCD and ADHD, I am getting pretty confused. It does not help guys like me went off on tangents about the frame and motor mounts. I tried to summarize the rear motor mount situation on this web page, based on what I learned on this site and the parts books.

OK, back on topic. I will re-read this thread 5 times, but I think we have learned:
1) Some KR triple clamps are modified K-model.
2) There is a super-mystery aluminum KR mount, that looks similar to Ceriani, but isn't.
3) The post-70 race bike triple clamp is Ceriani.

Also I think this is what is going on in the stock bikes:
45738-52; 1952 to 1953 K; steel, non-parallel stem
45738-54A; 1954 to 1958 KH, XL, XLH, XLCH; steel, parallel stem
45738-59; 1959 to E1962 XL, XLH, XLCH; looks steel in diagram
45738-62; L1962 maybe 1965 XLH, XLCH
45739-62B; L1962 to 1974 XLH, XLCH; perhaps assembly with rubber handlebar mounts, note it is a 45739,looks aluminum called out for 71 and later.
45738-73; 1975 to 197? XLH, XLCH, I think internal throttle went away in 1975
45738-73B; 197? to 1978 XLH, XLCH, running change to -73 part, form fit and function equal?
45736-78B; 1979 to 1984 XL, XLCH, XLS; polished
47697-83A; 1983 to 1984 XLS; black wrinkle (contradicts -78B)

Using my three pictures, here is a non-parallel-stem front end, 1952-1953 K:
1952_K-model-trinple-tree_sfw.jpg
1952_K-model-trinple-tree_sfw.jpg (83.77 KiB) Viewed 26910 times


Here is a close-up of that 1952-53 triple clamp:
1952_K-model-triple-clamp-sfw.jpg
1952_K-model-triple-clamp-sfw.jpg (90.61 KiB) Viewed 26910 times


And here is another non-parallel front end:
1952_K-model-triple-tree_sfw.jpg
1952_K-model-triple-tree_sfw.jpg (80.77 KiB) Viewed 26910 times


To that hand front end, I will try to stick on the other steel and aluminum clamps I have, to see if any fit. I am pretty confident I have a steel parallel top clamp, we shall see in a few minutes.
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby sportsterpaul » Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:31 pm

OK, using that triple tree with no clamp, I have tried a loose clamp and it fits and it looks the same as the other 1952 steel triple clamp.
1952-K-model-triple-clamp-2_sfw.jpg
1952-K-model-triple-clamp-2_sfw.jpg (99.48 KiB) Viewed 26910 times

Then I took the steel triple clamp that looked different, and lo and behold, it sure doesn't fit.
1954_K-model-triple-clamp_sfw.jpg
1954_K-model-triple-clamp_sfw.jpg (99.51 KiB) Viewed 26910 times

Here are the two clamps for comparison, the top one is 1952, the bottom is for a parallel-stem triple tree.
1952-1954_K-model-triple-clamp-compare_sfw.jpg
1952-1954_K-model-triple-clamp-compare_sfw.jpg (113.58 KiB) Viewed 26910 times

So does anybody know if that later-model steel clamp is
45738-54A; 1954 to 1958 KH, XL, XLH, XLCH; steel, parallel stem
or
45738-59; 1959 to E1962 XL, XLH, XLCH; looks steel in diagram
or is it even possible the L62 part is steel? I don't think so, but it would be nice to know if this is -54A or -59.
45738-62; L1962 maybe 1965 XLH, XLCH

Since later steel one in the picture does not have tabs for the switch gear, I assume it is -59. A look at the parts book will figure that out. This is great since this would be correct for my 1962. Does anyone have any idea of what serial number distinguishes late vs early 1962 as far as this front end goes? Is this saying they went from a steel top tree to an aluminum one in the middle of the 1962 model year?

Also, is the frame rake different for the non-parallel and parallel geometries? I will probably just keep whatever is on my 1954 front end, but if there is some combination that makes the front end a no-trail death machine, I sure don't want to run it. It looks like I could build either setup.
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby sportsterpaul » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:04 pm

OK, really jammin' now, as Frank Zappa would say.

Here is the late parallel stem steel triple clamp on the pink triple tree.
E1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-steel_sfw.jpg
E1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-steel_sfw.jpg (103.63 KiB) Viewed 26908 times

Here is the original pink aluminum triple clamp on that front end.
L1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-pink_sfw.jpg
L1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-pink_sfw.jpg (99.32 KiB) Viewed 26908 times

Here is a spare aluminum triple clamp on the pink front end.
L1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-black_sfw.jpg
L1962_Sportster-triple-clamp-black_sfw.jpg (92.19 KiB) Viewed 26908 times

Since the casting number on the aluminum triple clamps are -62, I have to believe this is the
45738-62; L1962 maybe 1965 XLH, XLCH
or
45739-62B; L1962 to 1974
As I noted, the base number changed, so maybe the 45739 is an assembly number that includes the rubber mounts for the handlebars.

Heck, for all I know, they used the -62 casting for -73 part they changed to with external throttle. The gang will know-- that whats great about this forum. I might go snap a pic of my 1962 out in the garage, I know it has an aluminum clamp, so probably nothing to learn there. Same deal with the 1954 K, It sure looks like a parallel stem tree with the later steel tabbed triple clamp.

Thanks Patrick and Dick and Erik, for shedding some light on this-- I am beginning to get what is what. I will make a page for my website that lists all these with hopefully the correct numbers. I doubt I will have pictures of the KR parts, but if I can find some, I will post that too.
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby EKHKHK56 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:00 pm

Wow, nice work! :!: To add to the what`s what list there is a 52-A bottom tree and 52-B bottom tree listed also in the 1956 Spare Parts book. So there must have been three -52 bottom tree sets. I have them, and will check them out later to try and distinguish differences. I believe raked and straight are two of the options. Erik
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby sportsterpaul » Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:45 am

Thanks, it means a lot coming from an expert like you. As always, once I post something I see all the mistakes. When I said there was nothing to learn about the triple clamp on my 1954 K-model chassis, that is dead wrong. It is steel and parallel stem, but it is also tabbed for the switch gear, so it is way different than "the late parallel stem steel triple clamp on the pink triple tree" picture. This is great since it means I just happen to own an example of the major types-- so when I get the studio lights installed I can take nice hi-res pictures of all these from all 6 sides.

I wonder about the rubber handlebar mounts. Are these easy to press out? I never tried, figuring its best to leave them alone. Thing is, I would like to take the paint off the pink front-end. One favorite way is to toss the parts into a 5-gallon can of Berryman's carb cleaner. I fear that might ruin the rubber though. I could also use Jasco with a brush, or maybe bead blast the paint off, but Dr Dick and others warn about going nuts with a bead blaster.

You are exactly right about the triple trees telling their own story. You can see I have three complete spare front ends, and thanks to you guys I finally know I have two non-parallel stem setups, and one parallel stem (the pink one). Then I have the front end on the 1954 K roller and the front end on my running 1962, which is incorrect (64 brake drum, no gators).

First setup was non-parallel triple clamps set up for cowbells and not gators. I looks like the factory changed the trail when they came out with the parallel-stem triple clamps and went to gators. I assume that was a handling issue. Then I suspect they went to aluminum triple clamps in L1962 on the same bike that they changed to the aluminum rear motor mount. Must have been a "get the weight out" initiative, I doubt it was cost reduction, but maybe, aluminum is easier to machine. Then we know the gators went away in what-- 1970 or so, I will check. Then in 1973 comes the Kayaba front end, but dang, it looks like the triple clamp did not change until 1975, my guess is for external throttle.

TerryR will be a treasure when it comes to all these rake and trail issues since he seems to have the frame changes down cold. So far so good. I will order the lights for my studio so I can take better picture of this stuff, and start looking at what changes must have happened on the triple clamps. That will just be a half-hour with my parts books. It will be interesting to see how things line up.
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Re: 1959 XLR TOP TREE

Postby thefrenchowl » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:25 pm

And, Paul, the only one you're not likely to see very often, the "early 54" "K modified as KH" top tree (it's off my own 54 KHK, engine 54 KHK 2540:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206359588981536&set=a.1241695295465.35733.1621810204&type=1&theater

The bottom tree is also moded, but simplier, just top web on both sides cut with hacksaw, bent apart a touch and rewelded...

The factory never threw anything away...

And that's the extra bracket on early pre 58 KR frames for the footrest and exh pipe:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10206359614742180&set=a.1241695295465.35733.1621810204&type=1&theater

Patrick
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